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Hello, everyone! Welcome to Discover Health Podcast. I am Dr. Trish Murray – physician, best-selling author, and the Health Catalyst Speaker. I am so excited to have my good friend, Leslie Jose, talking with me today. Leslie, how are you doing?

Hey! I’m doing great, Trish. I’m so glad to be sharing this time with you! This is a lovely opportunity for me. Thank you.

Oh, it’s well overdue my friend! You’re a special healer, and I’m really excited for you to be sharing what you do with my audience that listens to these podcasts. The title we’ve decided on today, folks, is Combined Modalities Such as Massage, Reiki, Sound, and Breath. How can this, and all of these being used together optimize your health? Leslie does this on a regular basis. First of all, let me share her bio and give you her background so you understand that she’s had many, many years of experience in multiple modalities.

lives in North Sandwich, New Hampshire and is trained as a massage therapist as well as a Karuna® Usui/Jikiden Advanced Reiki Master Teacher. Hopefully I did some justice to those names. Her practice, Peace of Mind Reiki and Massage, is located in Moultonborough, New Hampshire.

Leslie has studied with a variety of teachers and schools in massage, Reiki, sound healing, and a number of other areas. She brings over 25 years of passion for health and personal growth to her practice and offerings. Her love of, and experience in, the natural world as well as her years of service in the geriatric and health/fitness fields brings a quality to her sessions, retreats, and trainings that support health, personal awareness, and confidence. Leslie studied massage therapy at Northeastern Institute for Whole Health, which had a focus on oriental medicine. Then also at the New Hampshire Institute for Therapeutic Arts, which had more of a focus on clinical massage, and continues more detailed studies with Tom Myers and the Anatomy Trains programs. Leslie’s Reiki training began in the early nineties and has studied with masters such as William Rand, Frank Arjava Petter, Libby Barnett, and Frans Stiene. In her past she served as board of directors of the Vermont Reiki Association and was part of the organizing platform of Celebration of Reiki, Inc. in Massachusetts.

It has become a passion of Leslie’s to bring clear, steady, accurate information to those interested in or practicing Reiki and to allow her years of engagement with Reiki to be a support to the professional and personal development of others. Leslie’s experience and training bring a depth and professionalism to her unique way of combining and merging modalities, the focus of today’s discussion. This supports and nourishes the individualized needs of her clients, providing improved mobility, comfort, and opportunity for healing on all levels. Leslie is passionate about educating her clients, so they are better equipped to maintain the improvements gained during each and every session.

Pretty impressive there, Leslie! You’ve been doing this a long, long time. Help people understand your path. How did you come to be working with people the way you are now and combining modalities like you are?

You’re right, Trish. I am very lucky to have been able to bring all of this to one room, one table, and as well as the outdoors. I feel very fortunate that this is what I do. As far as how did it come to be that I brought all of these different angles of myself to the table…it was a bit of a roundabout way. I didn’t start off as a massage therapist as many people do. I came to massage therapy wanting to bring all of the parts and pieces of me together. I was a single mom and juggling the different jobs that you need to do to be able to support that kind of a scene. I found it very difficult to have a profession at that point when I needed more time. The massage pieces came in in bits and pieces.

I think probably the start of all of this was my fascination around energy and more specifically, the energy that pulses through our bodies that animates us. In school, all of us studied the body systems and for me, there could be all of those body systems sitting someplace, but it’s just a pile of tissue unless something is animating those to be alive. That led me to Reiki which also led me to the curiosities with vibration and sound. Jonathan Goldman, years and years ago before he was a bigger name in the whole vibrational area, was someone I got to study with. To me, the vibrational aspect and the Reiki piece of life energy really resonated. I was able to bring that curiosity to the classroom when I started studying massage. Luckily, my initial massage training was with an oriental medicine base which allowed for that interpretation of life and the energy of life. These eastern cultures have it for thousands of years! It’s not something new that there’s this life that flows through us and animates our parts and pieces. That validated, in a school setting, a lot of what I had already been curious with.

I continued to study with Reiki because what I found is the authentic trainings with Reiki really are about a whole person. It’s about clearing the congestion and the clutter through the practice of Reiki that actually allows us to source our true essence, that true part of who we are. When we’ve cleared away that clutter, we’re a pure channel, and the side effect of that process is that that channel of energy can flow through us. It can nurture us and flow through. That all made so much sense to me as well as my fascination with our physical bodies. I’ve always been a part of working with my hands, supporting others with my hands, so bringing the structural aspects of a massage practice with the Reiki piece of life energy and allowing that nurturing and nourishing to another as well as bringing the vibrational piece.

You might be able to see in the background that there’s a number of Tibetan bowls and a large crystal bowl and a number of sounds that I bring into the practice. When we think about our beings, our vibration, everything about us, every cell as you’ve shared with others too, every cell communicates with an electrical impulse or a chemical impulse. All of that is vibration. Every cell is nourished with either the room to vibrate appropriately in its space or it’s got some challenge and it can’t transfer that information well. As you would take a vitamin pill, we can take a sound vibration “vitamin” and nourish the body in vibrating at its frequencies that support the different systems.

Leslie, help people visualize in their mind what a session with you and combining modalities might look like.


Is it divided into different modalities or are they all happening at the same time?

So, there are some folks out there who are combining modalities. What I’ve found in the past is that people will put chunks of pieces in. “Here’s the massage piece and here’s the sound piece and here’s an aromatherapy piece.” For me, what was really important was to support the body’s process that we function alert and here and that sympathetic response. The mind is doing its request of the body and the body’s listening. For the benefit of massage, the benefit of relaxation, the benefit of sound, and the movement of energy happens within that restorative state, that parasympathetic response.

What I had seen in the past was the chunked piece never gave the whole being a chance to settle into the session and absorb all of the benefits that are there. When someone comes in, there’s a little bit of check in time when we unload our thoughts and whatever challenge is going on. That’s out of us. What’s on the table is a little bit less of a bowl of frustration or jazzy. There are several techniques that I bring to the table that support that body shifting. One is as a person gets on the table, there’s a bit of rocking. In essence, you can’t get any deeper than rocking. The body’s there and that rocking is hitting that tissue right where it attaches to the bone in a very quiet way where none of the other responses are going. There’s a very gentle, quiet rocking which helps the body to start to prepare into that restorative, restful space. There’s a bit of a guided meditation where I bring in the breathwork. I help the individual start to identify what’s happening with their breath, and its association to movement of the breath which also helps bring it down.

When someone’s body is on my table, there’s three very specific aspects of them there. There’s their physical body, there’s breath, and there’s this movement of life energy that animates the other two. When I bring in the rocking and I bring in the breath and then I bring in the sound, the body has gotten as close to quiet and disappeared as it can. From that point, then the massage piece comes in. The massage piece is usually very orthopedic in focus and deep, but I don’t want the body perceiving the depth. I don’t want the body’s breath kind of recoiling or the body recoiling or the breath grabbing because that takes it away from that quiet, restorative place. All these modalities come into basically a show, a play all together allowing the body to move into that space, allowing the massage aspect to happen with the person very, very relaxed. Then to me it’s also just as important to bring the person out of that place. There’s a series of things that we do in waking the body up. A couple of different stretches that happen on the table so when the person sits up, they’re alert, they’re ready to go. It’s not that fog of which way is up.

Right! Well, obviously you talk about energy and the idea that in traditional western medicine it’s like, “oh my goodness, let’s not talk about energy.” But quantum physics has been around since the early 1900s, like 1920, folks. We’re at a hundred years of discussions of quantum physics. The fact is, as you said, all cells vibrate. Some vibrate at different frequencies than other cells. The bottom line is without our energy we’re not alive, we’re six feet under. The cells have to vibrate, and we have to have this energy.

Another thing that you work with and I work with and we have a strong love of together is fascia and the connective tissue of the body. We both work with that as a physical entity, but also fascia is an amazing energy conduit. What are some thoughts you’d like to share with folks on fascia, first of all? How does fascia fit in to your discussion of energy when you’re working with a patient?

Well, for me, I would say that the whole fascial network…fascia is the strongest guiding force in what I’m bringing to a professional space in here. People come in because they’re uncomfortable or they want to support their health. All of those pieces in their physical body. Bringing all those other pieces we were just talking about to the physical body is about this structure and the structure’s form is there because of the fascia, this intricate web and wrapping and spreading and webbing in from out here into the DNA of every single cell. When

I’m speaking with someone about what their focus would be on the table, oftentimes we go into a conversation about position. Every single person that gets on the table presents a pronation or a head tilt or something with a hip, something that shows that their body’s patterns of position are reinforcing something that doesn’t work in the whole to support it all.

Fascia ends up being huge in that structural aspect. It also because of the intricacy and now with the studies and the research that is very current, 2020 current, with Jaap van der Wal and Carla along with Tom Myers are starting to bridge what I have always believed which is that the intricate, minute, minute, almost whispers of a cloud side of fascia is going to be the link, the bridge between consciousness and our physical body. We have these physical bodies, and we have this opportunity through meditation and breath to go inward and do that play, that work with consciousness. There’s a bridge some place, and I believe with this amazing study that’s going on right now that they’re starting to identify that. My gut feels that fascia is going to be the player in that.

Well, I would totally agree. First of all, the first international congress on fascia happened in 2007. We’re not even twenty years in to looking at the fascia in an intricate and complex way of all the specialists in the world coming together and talking to each other. You named a few of the high fascial anatomy folks and specialists. The fascial research congress is now an institutionalized organization that focuses on the fascia and the research that is out there and to be known. There is cutting edge stuff going on with fascial research all the time.

As people know, if someone has studied meditation, if somebody has studied shamanic healing, if someone has studied energy medicine such as I have and you have and also studied the anatomy and the physical structure…in my own experiences through my own shamanic and energetic healing training, I’ve experienced many times where you can…many people even in their own lives have felt the experience of leaving their body in a conscious way. You can either be present or you can leave and check out. Some people check out because of trauma. Other people check out just because they don’t want to be there for a little while, and they want to take a break. The bottom line is again this idea of consciousness and the consciousness has left the fabric. Fabric of life is what I call fascia. This idea that our consciousness and our link between the physical body and our soul or our energy as you say, I believe as well, is the fascial system. What gives us the fabric and we can decide to stay in the fabric in our structure or we can also leave. That can lead into a whole other discussion of when we die or near-death experiences and a whole other group of research.

The bottom line is energy, fascia, the structural body, and I’m sure there’s a good thing to discuss – how many times have you had, for example Leslie, clients you’re working with and you’re working on them and all of the sudden you’re working on the physical piece of the body or you’re sensing an energy while you’re working on that physical piece of the body and the person has an emotional response?

Well, anyone who has practice in yoga they’ll often hear, “the issue is in the tissues.” It’s a phrase that’s out there. Yeah, there’s memory, there are patterns that are set in place. The structural aspect of the body is there and the fascia that holds that structure is of one density and as we start to move through the intricate aspect of this system, it moves into the fluid of our joint is also fascia. These different densities that create this profound plan of action for our body is very, very much front and center for me. As you were just describing the ways to incorporate energy and the support of an individual with their process when something comes up, it’s not for us to judge or to do something. It’s to support the body doing what it knows to do. That innate ability that’s within the body that may have constrictions, that may have tension, that may have clutter and static that inhibits that innate ability to come forth. Our bodies have the information. Our potential is there within. For me, bringing all these different modalities to the table at one time opens up all the different doorways that support that potential then to be there for the body to move into what it can do. Identify areas of tension and bring release or identify areas that are depleted and bring that the nourishment that’s needed.

Yeah because of course we also are 70% water, and our fascia is predominantly water. It’s a spider web network that is layers, and things are supposed to slide and supposed to be extremely hydrated. I talk a lot about the sponge and the analogy of the sponge. The more you put it in the water and the more you squish it and squeeze it and put it back in the water, the more water it sucks up. As we age, it’s a drying out process. If we move or get massage or also get the energy flowing through the fluid rather than allowing the knots and the adhesions and the congestion and the emotional traumas that also may have initiated those congestions and those adhesions and those twists and knots…if we start working from the consciousness and the physical and the energic – wow! That’s what makes combining modalities like you’re doing such a powerful thing.

Our breath is the tool into the fascial network. When we utilize the breath…lots of people will talk about stretching, but they’ll go to this place and they’re holding their breath. There is it – there’s the stretch. What I share with people on the table because they’re stretching, that’s a part of the session depending upon what’s happening. If you bring improvement to an area, that area needs breath and movement with that improved length for it actually to set and to be effective. When I share with people about a stretch, I say, “This is just a position of length. If you take this position and you bring a big breath in, then you feel that intensity of stretch come in. Hold that length as you then let the breath come and go. Bring another breath in for length.” The breath is actually being the stretch and yet what is the breath affecting? The breath is affecting the fascia and all of its different textures and densities from the threads to the fluids to the webbing that goes around the dermatome. All of it is so…yeah!


I can get pretty passionate about fascia.

Absolutely! As can we both. The idea of the breath bringing oxygen or the breath of life and oxygen we have to have. If we don’t have oxygen, again, we’re six feet under and dead. The idea also is that oxygen and breath allow for the fluidity, again, of the fascial system. Every single blood vessel, every single nerve is surrounded by fascia. As you say, as you’re breathing, you’re helping oxygen, you’re helping fluidity, and you’re helping those cells vibrate better.

One example for people who can latch their head around is an analogy. One of the number one reasons for the development of a cancer is that the cells become deoxygenated. They don’t have any breath anymore for whatever reason. Are they living in an adhesive area that we’ve been talking about and they can’t get as much oxygen as they once could, let’s say? Those cells start replicating abnormally and create an environment that is beneficial to this growth of an abnormal growth that is now living in a deoxygenated, anerobic world. If you want to take this analogy and understand that the more you open yourself up to energy, the more you cause your body to be fluid, the more you breathe and oxygenate, and the more we open our minds and our bodies and our energy systems and our fascial system – then you’re going to prevent most people’s biggest horror. Things like that are just amazing.

James Nestor is a research journalist. He just recently put out a book called Breathe. He did incredibly thorough research for three to five years or something and what fascinates me a lot with this is over the past 800 years how because of our positions, our eating, our movement, lack of movement, how our skulls and jaws have shifted so that the breath airway is not appropriate for fully nourishing our body with breath. As you were just speaking to, all of the things that breath affects. This too and when we bring improved posture, when we’re able to start from the base and improve that posture we’re lengthening all those straps of fascia that support the muscles which then allow our positions to be there. Nose breathing and slowing our breath is so important for the oxygenation of all of those cells.

It’s pretty profound when somebody’s head is this way and they’re pronated. We talk about position. I describe it like a ladder that if a ladder is on the ground and you want to bring it up on the roof ridge, you need a good footing for it. It takes a little bit of effort to bring that ladder up on the roof ridge, but once it’s there it doesn’t take any effort at all. You can take hundreds of pounds up that ladder and it’s fine. If that ladder were to slide on the roof ridge, the amount of effort it would take to keep it there as you try to create effort. Our bodies as a ladder, if we’re here [rounded forward] the amount of effort…all the rest of the body muscle structure is trying to put out to hold it there. If we can bring it back into a good position, then again, the structure has that length. Most often when the ladder slides, people try to do just that. It doesn’t do anything for straightening the ladder out. If my head’s like this or my shoulders are here [up by the ears] and someone says, “Oh, lower your shoulders.” And I just do that then I jink up my neck. It’s not about just here. Taking it from our feet, soften our knees, bringing our tailbone, squeezing those glutes to the tailbone comes down and under, engaging the bellybutton in, bringing the shoulders down, then takes it from the base of the ladder and brings it up. What that does is lengthens all those sheets of fascia so our airway is more accessible, so the fluids in the body can get to the cells you were speaking about. For me, yes – fascia on the table is huge. It’s the medium that I get to bring in all these other modalities too.

That’s awesome! Leslie, I’ve heard you speak to “releasing the effects of stress.” Do the techniques you bring to the table support this? Tell folks about that.

Yeah. Well, we all hear that all the time. “You’ve got get rid of the stress. Got to get rid of the stress.” People come in and it’s just, “I’ve got to get rid of all this stress. This in my life and that in my life.” It’s like, “Hold on! You’ve got to work. You do have five kids you just said,” or, “You do have this.” Those are all real aspects of your life, and they are stressful. In my opinion, that’s not the problem. The problem is the effect of stress. If we can release the effect of stress, then the body is in a healthier place. If all those stressful things are there, that’s not the problem. It’s the effect of those stressful things, the effect of the stress, the chemistry that’s there. By bringing in these different modalities, it hits different layers of where the body accumulates that effect of stress. The rocking has a way of supporting the parasympathetic response to start to go around and identify where the tension is so that it can start to put its mechanisms in to start releasing that chemistry and the tissues and soften those.

The breathwork is huge that we do on the table as far as allowing that breath to move into the lower lobes, feeling where that breath goes, identifying sensation for the client with suggestive sides of, “Maybe with that in breath you’re noticing your belly press against the table. Feel those shoulders soften and relax as you exhale.” The combination of guided breath with stretch and softening not only aids in awareness, but it then brings more movement of the fluid and the tissue and continuing that chemical exchange that does the job of cleanup.

The aspect of sound that then comes in as well. From the studying that I did with Jonathan Goldman as well as some other stuff I’ve done, it describes how every system of the body resonates at a different frequency. All of the tissue within the circulatory system: the heart tissue, the capillaries, the veins, all the cells within that system vibrate at a certain frequency different than say the urinary system: the kidneys, the ureter, the bladder all vibrate at their frequency. There’s a communication within each system that’s different from each other. Bringing the sound in is not for me to bring a specific sound to a specific presenting symptom. It’s to bring all the sound in so that the body’s absorbing all of that sound just like if somebody’s been told that their deficient in calcium. If all you do is pump calcium in, but they’re still deficient in calcium it’s possibly because there’s something else interfering with the absorption of it. The same with the sound. I bring it all in because it’s not for any of us, it’s for the body to identify what sound and where it needs to go, in my opinion.

That aspect of release the effect of stress all those different ways and layers that the body absorbs it then gets to be supported in its proper function of releasing that chemistry or releasing the tension, releasing even a bit of time from the thought. When you allow the body to fall into a restorative place to the point that the person actually drifts away, then they’re also releasing and giving themselves the space and time without the busyness of thought.

Absolutely. We are, again back to energy and vibration as you brought up the different systems…we are a collection of cells. Billions and billions and trillions of cells. Each of those communities, if you will, of cells has created the different systems that have come together to create the human or the dog or the cat or the horse or whatever. The idea back of energy and vibration. Those vibrations and then the sound and music, why does music help us relax? Why does music or sound or vibrations help us to release things and let go and quiet the mind? It’s because the different frequencies are calling to different cells in different areas in the body. As you say, the fluidity and being able to release. That idea of, yeah, we all have stress. We can’t avoid it. Our world is a stressful world, but the point is what’s your perception of the stress and what is your energetic relationship with the stress? What are you doing for yourself to release the stressful energy and to find balance again on a regular basis?


It just sounds like all these different modalities coming together is like this optimal collection of the perfect storm, if you will, but in a positive way of all the different things coming together.

Yeah. I guess I should also share that one of the other pieces that’s different about what happens in these sessions is most people are used to the traditional spa framework or a massage setting that oftentimes you see it as an hour. In more recent years you’ll see people offering an hour and a half.

I call this POMR massage which is an acronym of my business, Peace of Mind Reiki and Massage. Also, it’s a play on words, POMR. It combines all of these different things in a way that’s not out there. The only really solid way to do this is to give it enough time for the body to work. All of us are able to release that – the sympathetic aspect of the body listening to the mind’s demands. We all get to the point of releasing that at different times, different ways. Bringing this variety in that is all about calming and quieting takes time. I ask people to give themselves two hours. Two hours sounds like a lot of time, but every single time someone gets off the table they say, “Where did that go?”


Really to bring the body to that restorative place, to offer it the space to do its work, and me to do my work and then bring the body back out – two hours is really the nugget of time that’s needed.

You know, one thing we haven’t addressed would be the environment such as the environment of the indoors versus the outdoors and the personal practice of the natural world. You’ve spent a lot of time in the natural world, and as far as I know you were at one time were a very high kayaking competitor and you’ve spent a lot of time out in the lakes of obviously Squam and so forth where you live. I have run canoe trips in Canada in my youth and spent weeks at a time out in the wilderness. Comment to that. Where does the natural world and the personal practice of making sure you’re in the natural world on a regular basis play into all this in combining modalities?

Yeah. Well, yes very much the natural world is my breath. I mean, we’re so fortunate to live where we do. If there are people that end up watching this podcast that aren’t from around here – we’re tucked into the White Mountain National Forest of New Hampshire. Within ten steps of my door are trails that go on forever. So, the privilege that’s there for me to have it that accessible, but there have been times this hasn’t been where I was. Stepping out and leaning my back against a tree to participate with my breath, to feel vibration of my body, to take the time to listen to where those stressors are landing so I can bring my breath or a position of length and my breath to that area. The benefit and the privilege of having these amazing, beautiful natural resources available to us is very real and we can do it with a tree in the park. To me, it’s imperative that all of us take time outside. Taking time breathing through our nose, breathing in and out through our nose to let our lungs fill, but the time to be quiet enough to try to listen. These bodies are talking to us all the time, and we stay so busy and focused on our worlds that we forget to quiet enough to listen. Most of us can offer the support it needs by taking that time to listen.

I wonder if…there was a Wendell Berry poem. Let me see if I can pull this up. I guess not. I thought I had it right here. There’s a beautiful poem by Wendell Berry. I don’t necessarily align with the beginning part about worry and the weight of it because I’ve practiced Reiki and other modalities enough that I shifted away from the worry. I’ve shifted away from those pieces. His speaking to being in nature lets the rest of it go. The grace of nature. I wish I could remember the quote. Out in nature the ability to move our bodies in all of its directions, to ask the lungs to be breathing, to take in the challenges of nature that then adapts. A tree falls, and it lands on another tree. Eventually that other tree ends up finding its way to still grow and curl and move around it. The lesson that’s there for all of us in nature where we can adapt and shift. The foundation of Reiki is really about a personal practice of releasing worry, releasing anger, releasing the things that compromise our breath and opening to gratitude and doing the work to find out who we are, our internal true self and expand that and come from a place of compassionate heart thinking and heart doing. To take that into nature just gets reinforced over and over and over again.

That relationship when you’re outdoors breeds the idea of changing your perception of the world. Someone that lives indoors is fearful of the outdoors. Someone who goes outdoors and experiences the outdoors, in my opinion, develops a relationship with all that is and learns that it is a beautiful, nurturing, supportive environment rather than something to be afraid of. These are things that it’s all about perception. I just did a whole talk on the idea of attention, intention, and perception and how we look at stress in our lives that helps people to find balance. You brought up things like compassion, gratitude, faith, love, kindness, supportiveness – these are the words we want to have and perceive our world from. It takes time to get there because many of us are programmed through our lives to be afraid and to be in fear and to be controlled rather than have control. These are all things that – wow! We could go on and on and on. Leslie, this is such a wonderful conversation!

The last question I love to ask all of the folks that I have on this podcast is with all that we’ve talked about today, how would we end with – what’s your number one secret that you would share with people that you feel helps you live a healthy life?

Well, with the multilayered pieces that we’ve offered today, it’s a little challenging for me to come up with the one! We’ve talked about inner self and that consciousness piece as well as the functional structure of who we are. I’m going to toss two nuggets out in both directions.

The first is the structural piece. To me, our position is everything. For the physical body which then leads to the rest. Glutes, bellybutton, and the barrel. That’s squeeze your bum, so you feel that tailbone come down. Pull that bellybutton towards your spine so that you take compression in the spine into suspension. This barrel kind of focusing on your ribcage and the back, if you pull that ribcage down and then settle into that position. Like the ladder, we don’t have to hold it there when it’s in a good position. Settle into that good position. Well, then comes the computer. Here comes the thinking, okay, so there it is. Again, you go one, two, three and bring it back! So, position.

Timewise, if there’s enough time I’ll speak to the other piece which is more about the releasing of worry, of anger, and of fear. We’ve been trained and propaganda-ed and brainwashed to be in those things. None of them were meant for us to be in. They were meant for a flag, like a fraction of a second of a flag to be fearful or to be worried or to have anger because what that can be, my nugget would be – turn those to awareness because that awareness becomes action. If I’m fearful, there’s the flag, but then if I become aware, what am I fearful of? I need to do these things to step away from a challenging situation. Or anger, it’s about boundaries. That’s the second nugget which is to release fear, anger, and worry. Turn it to awareness and action.

That’s awesome, Leslie! Thank you so much for being on the show with me today. I hope people have enjoyed this – I sure have! I just love talking with you. There’s a lot of connection. Thank you so much!

Oh, it’s been a treat! Thank you, Trish!



Take care, everyone. We’ll see you on the next episode of Discover Health Podcast.



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